We must get beyond our most dangerous enemy: a melee (which ensues when groups become locked together in combat with no regard to group tactics or fighting as an organized unit).
We must be nice. We must be positive. We must be welcoming to visitors and outsiders at our Masses. We must be happy. Joy. Filled with the Holy Ghost.
And we must not have a dystopian view of the twenty-one ecumenical councils of the Church, as the Orthodox pick and choose.
The Orthodox only recognize Seven Ecumenical Councils of whose Sacred Canons the West certainly picks and chooses, as it acts nice, welcoming, happy and joyous. Of course this is its veneer of fighting as a unit.
ReplyDeleteHi JP, I have enjoyed your series on Canadian Catholic culture and I appreciate your positive attitude. It's a rare thing indeed. Keep up the good work! I'm surprised I have never bumped into you as I frequent many the same churches (St. Clement's, St. Patrick's, etc...)
ReplyDeleteLOL. Speaking of the Orthodox, that just bout defines melee!
ReplyDeleteDear Mr. Sonnen. The Trads I know are a happy lot, especially so when they are engaged in a good fight. Men are created to be warriors and the combat within the Church calls for warriors; happy warriors, yes; but definitely warriors.
ReplyDeleteWho is the leader of Traditional Catholics? Dunno.. Because we are sheep who have been abandoned by the Hierarchy, we are currently without a identifiable leader.
Nice? Be nice? Really, when I am told "be nice," I imagine I am hearing my Aunt Ruth telling us boys scrapping in her front yard to, "Be nice;" and Aunt Ruth had Alzheimer's.
Your last sly sentence seems to me to unfairly conflate all councils as of putative equal value; at least cut us some slack and let us think of V2 as different than, say, Trent or V1.
I know my words will read as though they issued from an angry, bitter, unhappy man; but, really, I am a happy man; well, as happy as any Irish-Injun man who is the same age as Israel and who has witnessed the complete and total collapse of Catholicism.
And if you do not think I am happy, I'd be happy to fight you about it :)
There are assertions in this post, but no arguments. What is being nice, for example? Why must we be nice? Must we always be nice? Doesn't true charity demand that sometimes we aren't nice? For instance, is RealCatholicTV's refusal to say a single word against the scandals of Assisi charitable, though it be seen as nice? Was St. Jerome a nice guy? St. Athanasius?
ReplyDeleteAs for RealCatholicTV's scandalous silence, and their "nice" defense of it, see this:
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php?topic=3446362.80
And here's Fulton Sheen on false compassion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXQP3UJnagM
As for our most dangerous enemy, it isn't a melee. Rather, it's threefold: the world, the flesh, and the devil - the most dangerous being the last.
ReplyDeleteSorry folks. John's point is well taken I think. I know a number of people who love the tradition of the Church and who would make a similar comment. They aren't all making it up.
ReplyDeleteIt's just a reality that some trads can be very bitter and unpleasant folks indeed. In fairness, the liberal crowd and the neo-cons have the same sorts of folks, but in the smaller community of trads, these types are all the more noticeable (and usually very vocal at that). That can be a big hindrance to the tradition and make it off putting for some.
As for the "true charity" card, I cannot resist commenting about this because too often that little bit of rationalization is thrown out there as an excuse for boorish, and yes, uncharitable behaviour. One can speak the plain truth without being boorish and rude about it.
At any rate, not all trads are this way, but there are a number of unpleasant one's and they do need to not be made the voice of the tradition.
\\And we must not have a dystopian view of the twenty-one ecumenical councils of the Church, as the Orthodox pick and choose.\\
ReplyDeleteCan the Orthodox really be expected to recognize councils in which they did not participate, or even were invited to attend?
Trust me, the Latin Church picks and chooses which of the Canons of the First Seven it follows. For example, she ignores the canons allowing married men to be ordained to major orders and that forbid kneeling on Sundays.
**Who is the leader of Traditional Catholics?**
Last time I looked, the Pope was the leader of ALL Catholics.
If you mean nice to new trads, who may know little regarding the Mass or other tradition, I could not agree more.
ReplyDeleteIf you mean be nice to each other, SSPX, FSSP, conservative NO, I agree that we have to be charitable in our disagreements.
If you mean be nice to those who should know better, Vatican II documents thatt contradict Tradition, communion in the hand, Asissi, alter girls, No.
The anger and bitterness that is sometimes palpable in groups of traditional Catholics could be understood as a normative reaction of a persecuted minority. Even more so when one considers the persecution comes from their own Church leaders who have betrayed them and the Faith again and again and again...
ReplyDeleteDoes the Author of this blog believe in the validity of the novus ordo?
ReplyDeleteThe Holy Roman Church affirms only those canons which do not contradict Her Tradition, which is the Tradition of the Universal Church - or have we forgotten that for any council to be ratified, it must be ratified by the Pope. No pope is bound to a council, but a council is no council unless ratified by the Bishop of Rome. The reason why Roman delegates were present at all major councils prior to the Great Schism is that the Pope's emissaries represented him at those councils and made his will known, as well as reporting back to the Holy Roman Pontiff, the Chief Shepherd and Vicar of Christ.
ReplyDeletePick and choose? - hardly. Read the Formula of Pope Saint Hormisdas for an example of the Roman prerogative.
Dystopian? Too clever by half. Hope you are still enjoying those clowns Masses!
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeleteThe prohibition on kneeling on Sundays isn't even recognized throughout the Orthodox Church and wasn't strictly enforced in some jurisdictions until a few hundred years ago (likely out of anti-Catholic animus). For instance, the Old Believers/Ritualists, many of whom remain out of communion with the Orthodox Church (though some began rejoining with their rites intact in the 19th C.), use frequent prostrations before, during, and after the Sunday services (including the Liturgy). These are not random occurrences, but rather called for in the rubrics (Typikon) which was in use in the Russian Church before the mid-17th C. and likely dates back to the earliest Church missions in Russia. Moreover, before their own traditions were put on hold/destroyed for a time, many Arab Christians used prostrations on Sundays, as did/do Romanians and Carpatho-Russians (though some claim these are "Westernizations"). Only the Greeks and Russians, in more recent times, have brought up the "no kneeling" rule, though there are still many Greek and OCA (Russian) parishes in the U.S. with pews and kneelers and/or older parishioners who will kneel at certain parts of the service. The "on the ground" tradition trumps the canons any day of the week.
As for invoking "the canons" in an Eastern context, please. I still have my beat up copy of The Rudder and not even a medieval glossator could harmonize that thing. Most Orthodox churches play fast-and-loose with the canons, privileging local councils and customs over "universal decrees" more often than not.
The canons forbid penitential kneeling on Sundays, venuleius, not ALL kneeling. Kneeling on Sundays is simply a custom used in some Orthodox traditions and not in others.
ReplyDelete\\The Holy Roman Church affirms only those canons which do not contradict Her Tradition, which is the Tradition of the Universal Church\\
ReplyDeleteThe Roman Church is NOT the totality of the Universal Church.
She is merely one part of it, according to the teachings of Popes Leo XIII and Pius XI on the dignity of the Eastern Churches, as well as the decrees of Vatican II on this subject.
**As for invoking "the canons" in an Eastern context, please. I still have my beat up copy of The Rudder and not even a medieval glossator could harmonize that thing.**
Orthodox Canon law is pretty much in the same condition that Latin Can Law was before the Pian-Benedictine code of 1917 or thereabouts.
This is complicated by the fact that there are TWO collections considered authoritative: the Rudder (Pedalion), which you mentioned, and the Nomocanon, where the canons are arranged by subject, which is considered authoritative in the Russian Curch.
I also wanted to say that there is more to "Catholic Tradition" than devotion to the Extraordinary Form--or even the way things were back in the secure, stable, and prosperous 1950's.
ReplyDeleteScrewtape said that if Wormwood's patient can't be stopped from going to church, he should be turned into a zealous member of a faction within it.
He also said that if the patient can't be stopped from being a Christian, make sure he's a "Christian with a difference"--and make sure this difference first becomes the touchstone of Christianity, then its only characteristic.
While C. S. Lewis was talking about the Church of England, the same principle applies to the Church of Rome.
Most holy Theotokos, save us!
I hardly know where to start here. In the East, the Canons are to be imposed by the Bishops with leniency or strictness according to the situation, which means that many of them are not observed at all.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think your swipe at the Orthodox was unneccesary, John. I'm sorry you felt you had to say that.
Jim of Olym
Orthodox in the PNW
Timothy on the Latin Mass: "The Mass we love, the people we hate."
ReplyDeleteAnd.. case in point.
ReplyDeletehttp://voxcantor.blogspot.com/2011/12/why-are-trads-so-ignorant-and-nasty.html
INTERNECINE is the problem of traditional Catholics.
ReplyDelete