tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post7991368775419212005..comments2024-02-19T07:05:35.716-08:00Comments on Orbis Catholicus Secundus: Treasures From the Preconciliar Papal LiturgyJohn Paul Sonnenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17248427382830782035noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-84237227213413257622011-05-27T06:00:18.284-07:002011-05-27T06:00:18.284-07:00The new liturgical movement blog has a post today ...The new liturgical movement blog has a post today inspired by your finding of those objects, clarifying what they are. Those objects were used in the preconciliar form of canonization ceremonies, during which oblations of bread, wine and a dove were made to the Pope.Prof. Bastonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-29664209658798193722011-05-26T08:05:04.666-07:002011-05-26T08:05:04.666-07:00Thanks Orbis for taking and posting pictures of th...Thanks Orbis for taking and posting pictures of these fascinating relics of the traditional solemn Papal Mass; one only gets a very fleeting view of them in old, grainy photographs (which are usually in black & white) or a glimpse during a low-resolution video; but either case is very rare!!!<br /><br />Here's a description of the item for the curators of the St. John Lateran's museum (and anyone else interested)!!!<br /><br />The faux loaves of bread (which being hollow would have actually acted as covers for a real loaf) and wine casks (which would have been actually filled with wine, hopefully red Chianti!) were used during the consecration of bishop.<br /><br />The bishop presented them personally to the consecrator (in this case the pope) just before the Offertory action (a touching relic of the Offertory Procession); this is described in the Caeremoniale Episcoporum. He also presented a candle.<br /><br />The above items were also used for a canonization ceremony which included the presentation of two turtledoves in a cage to the pope. This of course is reminiscent of St. Joseph and Our Lady "redeeming" their Son at the Temple per the Jewish rites (the Presentation at the Temple), because they were too poor to afford a lamb. The doves also symbolize peace.<br /><br />Part of this can be read in Archdale King's account of the solemn Papal Mass which is now partially online: http://www.caeremonialeromanum.com/2010/05/archdale-king-solemn-papal-mass.htmlRomanitas Presshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03392344965842970673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-9757375700017962882011-05-25T15:27:04.827-07:002011-05-25T15:27:04.827-07:00What Mattia said; see my comment on the post below...What Mattia said; see my comment on the post below.Gregorhttp://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-9156077549889438162011-05-22T01:14:31.774-07:002011-05-22T01:14:31.774-07:00I wonder if this is it, from the rubrics of the Po...I wonder if this is it, from the rubrics of the Pontificale Romanum:<br /><br />DE CONSECRATIONE ELECTI IN EPISCOPUM<br />Et pro Offertorio intortitia duo, quatuor librarum quodlibet, duo panes magni, et duo barilia vini; panes et barilia ornentur, duo, videlicet, videantur argentea, et duo aurea, hinc et inde insignia Consecratoris, et Electi habentia, cum capello, vel cruce, vel mitra pro cujusque gradu et dignitate.<br /><br />No mention of the bird cages though, just bread, wine and a pair of candles, presumably token consumables for the MassLouisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-47064873285157818552011-05-21T17:15:23.283-07:002011-05-21T17:15:23.283-07:00Drear Mr. Sonnen,
I think the casks contained holy...Drear Mr. Sonnen,<br />I think the casks contained holy oil, perhaps Olia Sancta Chrisma or Olia Sancta. There were similar casks holding holy oils, stored in St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans as late as 1980. I've no idea if they are still there.<br />The cask in the foreground bears the coat of arms of Pius XI, the one in the background, those of Ven. Pius XII, of happy memory. The bread plate bears the coat of arms of Bl. John XXIII.<br />Your blog is always beautiful, informative and delightful to visit. Please, keep up your fine work.<br />In Christos,<br />Kenneth M. KafoedKennethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02721430274423793601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-73211993179639929732011-05-21T12:59:12.603-07:002011-05-21T12:59:12.603-07:00These objects were used for the canonization, not ...These objects were used for the canonization, not for the consecration of bishops. There are some photos online of the canonization of some African martyrs celebrated by Pope Paul VIMattianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-47911231868543720402011-05-21T12:35:25.981-07:002011-05-21T12:35:25.981-07:00http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2326/gabbietta....http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2326/gabbietta.jpgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-8620982844871729892011-05-21T11:56:49.043-07:002011-05-21T11:56:49.043-07:00Vessels for the offertory at papal Mass. The barre...Vessels for the offertory at papal Mass. The barrels for wine and water; two patens, for the two hosts - the sacristan touched them together and ate one (praegustatio) - presumably the one in the silver paten. The two little cages have me baffled - but Gregor will know!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3181589320170374720.post-24986607396419438692011-05-21T11:13:32.097-07:002011-05-21T11:13:32.097-07:00My guess is that the bird cages were used for live...My guess is that the bird cages were used for live doves who were released on certain feasts such as Epiphany or Pentecost. Assuming the casks are usable both the bread container and the casks were used for bread and wine in the "choosing rite" at Papal Solemn Masses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com